three months

The QueenVee Saga

From: "queenvee59" <queenvee59@h...>
Date: Sat May 17, 2003 8:05 pm
Subject: LOCATION OF TODAY'S ZETATALK SESSION with Nancy Lieder

As most of you are already aware, due to an ownership mix-up, the
#zetatalk channel on undernet.org has been taken over by a group of
debunker types, and all of the usual ops (including Obany) have been
stripped of their status. There is currently an imposter Obany and
NancyL on the channel, and they will attempt to conduct a fake
sesssion.

The real session is being held in the #zetatalk_crisis channel on
Undernet.org, at the usual Saturday session time -- 22:00 UTC (6pm
EST). Look forward to seeing you there.

Best,
QueenVee

------o------

From: "queenvee59" <queenvee59@h...>
Date: Wed May 21, 2003 2:41 pm
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: New ZetaTalk Chat Room

New ZetaTalk Chat Room
***********************

As you all know, the #zetatalk and now #zetatalk_crisis IRC channels have been hacked and taken over by script kiddies, and are no longer available for serious discussion. And Nancy Lieder has now announced that there will be no more ZetaTalk Sessions on IRC.

If anyone is interested in a civilized and well moderated adult chatroom to discuss the aftermath of the ZetaTalk phenomenon and/or continuing PX/Poleshift issues, you are welcome to join us in the #ZTchat channel on Undernet.org.

Directions on how to access the channel can be found here:
http://www.shift2003.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=

showpage&pid=83

Best,
QueenVee

------o------

From: "queenvee59" <queenvee59@h...>
Date: Wed May 21, 2003 5:04 pm
Subject: Update From QueenVee

To all those emailing and messaging me, please note that I have posted the following "Update" on my website (www.shift2003.com), summarizing all that I know, think, and feel about Nancy Lieder, ZetaTalk, Planet-X, and a coming poleshift. If you do not find the answer to your question there, assume that I don't have it.

I will post any further information -- if and when it becomes available -- on my website.

In the meantime, a reminder that the new ZetaTalk Chat Room can be found in the #ZTchat channel on undernet.org -- for those interested in a well-moderated adult environment in which to discuss the aftermath of the ZetaTalk phenomenon, and/or ongoing PX-Poleshift issues. Please note that the room is for those who have followed and seriously considered the ZetaTalk material and/or the possibility of a PX/Poleshift; long-time known disruptors, detractors, and debunkers and not welcome. Directions on how to access the chat room can be found here:

http://www.shift2003.com/modules.php?
name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=83

Best,
QueenVee

------o------

From: "Mike O'Hara" <ppplanet@a...>
Date: Sat May 17, 2003 2:05 pm
Subject: Obany stripped of OP status

For the record, Obany has been stripped of OP status on the IRC chat room(#zetatalk_crisis). Greg has taken this action and has apparently installedhimself as head op.

Obany has been moderating the chat room for several years, but has now beenkicked out by someone who's been here a month.

To my knowledge, Greg has consulted with neither Nancy nor Obany abouttaking this questionable action.

------o------

From: "queenvee59" <queenvee59@h...>
Date: Sat May 17, 2003 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: Obany Has NOT been stripped of OP status

For the record, Obany is indeed an operator in the new #zetatalk_crisis channel on undernet.org. And Nancy's Zetatalk Session will be held in #zetatalk_crisis today (Saturday, at 22:00 UTC) in view of the fact that Obany has lost ownership (and op status) in the original #zetatalk channel on undernet.org.

Best,
QueenVee

------o------

From: "queenvee59" <queenvee59@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 3, 2003 12:29 am
Subject: QueenVee Bids Farewell

**********************
QueenVee Bids Farewell
**********************

Well, as of May 20th, your friendly neighbourhood hackers/debunkers/

------o------

From: Tamachan

6/3/2003:

Follow-up clarification on recent events:

As of this writing, a large majority of the money that has been donated to Ralf comes from the very people queenvee and nancy refer to as "debunkers".

Most of us are geeks who do not believe in any of this zeta talk nonsense,greatly empathize with Ralf's plight and feel compelled to help him. Just to be clear, queenvee's readers DID NOT save her site, WE, the "debunkers" DID save
her site.

Distributed Denial of Service attacks are perpetrated by individuals with no morals, have plagued the Internet for years, and threaten the very livelihood of online communities such as the Internet Relay Chat.

Absolutely NONE of us believes that queenvee's site www.shift2003.com serves any useful purpose whatsoever.

Despite all this, Ralf appears to be willing to keep queenvee's site up and running FOR FREE. It would therefore only make sense that those users who do find this site useful make contributions to Ralf, may they be occasional or regular.

***********

Well QueenVee,

Good Riddance. See in-line comments:

--- In tt-watch@yahoogroups.com, "queenvee59" <queenvee59@h...> wrote:
QueenVee Bids Farewell<

Ooo Oooo watch, this is us crying. can you hear us cry? Honestly, we are!

> Well, as of May 20th, your friendly neighbourhoodhackers/debunkers/

disruptors/all-around-assholes made it impossible for Nancy Lieder to continue holding live IRC sessions. Shortly thereafter they took over yet another ZetaTalk chat room, after which I set up the #ZTchat channel on Undernet.org for those who wished to continue having serious discussion about PX/poleshift issues with other serious-minded individuals.<

Serious-minded? How about somewhat-confused, and thoroughly-misguided? Here's the problem: while some of your "moderators" may have acted with a bit more maturity at times, you have never, *ever* truly allowed rational discussions and debates to take place on the topics of "Planet X", "Zeta Talk" and "Pole shifts". When the heat came around the corner and a shred of truth and rationality was rearing its ugly head, you were quite prompt to "ban" people from your "channel". Has your ban list *ever* been comprised of less than 30 users, even while the channel was moderated?

Every single one of Nancy's "Live IRC Sessions" have been sickening freakshows; better than any "reality-TV show" producer could have ever dreamed of. We all got hooked. Nancy would come on-line and spew her crap while hand-picking harmless questions and skillfully dodging any rational question such as: "Why aren't we seeing it yet?" There truly has never been a single on-line "discussion" with Nancy's participation.

Ergo: your claims of "serious" discussion are laughable at best and infuriating to people who seek truth.

This brings me to another concern: Zeta Talk wastes people's time. Whereas prime-time TV only wastes DUMB PEOPLE's time, and is mostly harmless, Zeta talk wastes *SMART* people's time, and takes time away from their accomplishing more constructive things in their lives. Zeta kooks such as you, Queenvee, will be quick to argue that nobody *forces* them to "debunk" Nancy's nonsensical rantings. This is true. But people who participate in newsgroups and on-line communities, such as sci.astro and the Internet Relay Chat, are simply incapable of ignoring misinformed rantings on subject matters they've spent a good chunk of their lives PASSIONATELY studying. Of all people, THEY are the ones who truly are the most thirsty for TRUTH. For years, Nancy has been adding a considerable amount of "noise" to what used to be a far cleaner "signal" on various scientific newsgroups. For years, both amateur and professional astronomers have been pointing their telescopes at parts of the skies in a desperate attempt to get Nancy to understand that her MYTHICAL PLANET IS NOT THERE. Such messages would subsequently get ignored.

Finally, it has been obvious to anyone, who cared to pay attention, that you, Queenvee, have not believed in anything Nancy has spewed for *at least* the last few weeks. YET, you have consistently done whatever you could to keep chatrooms under "your control," focused on two highly useless things:

- watching sunsets for any evidence that the Earth's rotation may have stopped.
- watching public seismic reports.

What has your agenda been, Queenvee? "Just have fun"? "Do your own thing in your own damn chat room?" Are you purposely misguiding people? To what end? To keep this thing going for a wee bit longer? Do you think this is all an entertaining game? While YOU, Queenvee, may be smart enough to take all of this with a fat grain of salt, my guess is that you aim to surround yourself with people who are not capable of that.

Why are you really going away, Queenvee? Is it really because of those "evil hackers"? Or the fact that there have never been more than 3 active people on your channel at any given time for the past few weeks? Could it be the fact that ABSOLUTELY NONE of Nancy's predictions have come true? Could it be the fact most people who used to believe in all of this are, indeed, catching a glimpse of the *glaring* TRUTH and starting to DOUBT? Could it be that "your serious discussions" really have no more of a leg to stand on?

Here's another problem, Queenvee: everything about your behavior screams
two things:

1) mean
2) clueless

That is a *very, very* unhealthy combination of character traits to approach the Internet Relay Chat with. Upon inspections of various logs, I highly doubt there has been any hacking involved. Channel control was simply "handed over" voluntarily or involuntarily. For YEARS, the software running most IRC networks has been enhanced to prevent such things as "channel takeovers" through what you so cluelessly refer to as "hacking". The only way the "control of a channel" can change hands is through negligence and social engineering against you. Those are very effective against people who match 1) and 2) above.

> Since then the #ZTchat channel has been attacked several times a day and subjected to several attempted take-overs. And now -- the last straw -- the server-owner who has been hosting my website (www.Shift2003.com) has seized it, demanding that I and my readers cough up money to cover the cost of attacks on his server by the aforementioned hackers/debunkers/disruptors/all-around-assholes.<

By the way, *I* gave $20 to Ralf, the guy who has been hosting YOUR site FOR FREE for over 9 MONTHS. So have most IRC attendees who you appear to be referring to as "hackers/debunkers/disruptors/all-around-assholes," simply because they dared attempt to shed some truth on Nancy's rantings while in your presence. Which has also been Nancy's policy: anyone who disagrees or tries to disprove the "Zeta talk preachings" is instantly placed in the "hackers/debunkers/disruptors/all-around-assholes" PILE, also known as (seldom-watered) "government plants", (under)"paid government spooks", "THEY", "THEM", or "blue meanies" (err wait, scratch that last one). I hardly doubt those people belong to those pathetic excuses for life forms known as "script kiddies" who launch Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) attacks at Ralf's networks. Ralf would have been all over them. If you won't give him gratitude, at least give him *some* credit.

> So this is where I call it a day, folks. As of today, the #ZTchat channel is permanently shut down, the www.Shift2003.com website is no longer in existence, and I am no longer available at queenvee59@h... Best of luck to everyone. And be sure to thank your friendly neighbourhood hackers/debunkers/disruptors/all-around-assholes for their concerted efforts to restrict what you may or may not think,<

Those "assholes" could not possibly restrict anyone from thinking anything, and are now welcoming *everyone* on what shall remain the permanent, stable, "Zeta talk" irc channel:

#zetatalk on undernet

Here, all opinions are welcome, albeit subject to criticism and occasional harmless mockery directed at the hard-headed who refuses to *think*. Many of the "moderators" who used to help out both Nancy AND you, Queenvee, are now happy, well-adjusted, permantent "operators" of #zetatalk.

> because they are all part of the New World Order of the future.<

Hey Queenie, when this "new world order" "thing" happens, be sure to let us
know, mmkay? Between Bush and aliens, I choose Bush, because I know I can
vote him out of office.

> But, hey -- maybe we'll get lucky and have a poleshift. ;-)<

You know, this last sentence is disturbing on *so* many levels, especially when looking at its sarcasm and what it means to the people who'll never get back the hours they've spent scouring thru the mindless earthquake and tornado reports you'd post to your site. You're basically telling them: "Oh, I was just kidding" or "That was all crap."

End Seal Talk.

------o------

From: "Edgars F" <vortogon@a...>
Date: Thu Jun 5, 2003 8:58 pm
Subject: In Reply to Tamachan

In Reply to Tacmachan's reply to QueenVee's "Farewell Letter"

Clearly Tacmachan you are nor ever have been a Zetatalk believer. Therefore you have no reason to be apart of this issue at all. Other then personal, an that is your motive. You have stated time in and time again what brought you to Zetatalk in the beginning was Nancy's continued flooding of usenet. sci.astro of her postings being disruptive to "true science" and that Nancy's posting was disruptive to the prosute of "true science", that you had to take action.

One must ask the question what pure science are you refering to in that Sci.Astro is nothing more then a message base of an for arm chair science at best. An truely if Nancy's posting were so disruptive of the message base that matter could have been easly solved with a few well posed complaint letters to the moderators of the message base for them to impose a network ban that would have solved the situlation. Which was not done, no complaint letters seem to have been sent, nor did the moderators find Nancy's postings as disruptive enough to have them take action.

You have claimed the mantle of "savior" of pure science and scientific investigation as if mainstream Science is in mortal danger of Nancy Lieder and her channelings of supposed Aliens, therefore must be destoried at all costs. When in the field of Main Stream Science Mrs Lieder's claims can an has have been disputed with nothing more then a paragraph, and True Scientists would consider Nancy Lieder and Zetatalk no more a threat to science then pimple to upon your face. They would not bother even to waste their time contemplating Zetatalk more then five mintues before heading off to legitimate investigations and research. Yet to you Tacmachan you make it sound as if Nancy Lieder is a grave grave threat to be destoried at all costs. Showing your entire ameaturish view of Science and its operations.

No Tacmachan science is in no danger to the likes of Nancy Lieder, QueenVee or Poleshift nor EarthChanges discussions. What is infact in danger is Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Independent Thought no matter how controversual. An that threat comes from the likes of you and your associates whom have taken over #zetatalk undernet taken over to date twenty rooms upon the undernet, Efnet and several other networks of IRC Internet Relay Chat. You and your associates have closed down room after room where discussions and conversations have taken place. You and your associates have systematically hacked QueenVee's webstire, disrupted and even threatened with intimdation those that share in the views of Nancy and Queen's beliefs. And you continue your actions daily an nightly. Launching your attacks under the disguise of computer screen and software.

No Tacmachan you and your associates are no warriors defending pure science, your a thug, a terrorist, a facist. It has to be your thought or no thought, your discussion or no discussion, your point of view or no point of view! Those that do not adhere to your point of view are silenced and destoried. Your no better then a 1938 Nazi Brown Shirt, Or A Maoist, Or a Stalinist. An even then you even worse, where the Nazi brown shirts marched down the streets in broad day light proud to identify themselves with their actions. You hide behind a computer screen handle or a faked ip or proxy address, while you set out to destory Freedom of speech and Freedom of expression, Freedom of Association. Everything a true Scientist would believe in, though how controversial the subject may be! Where as you've appointed yourself as savior of scientific thought. In reality you are nothing more then You are nothing more then "Thought Police" the thing warned about in the works of George Orwell's 1984. Have no illison there Tacmachan.

I invite those who have a concern for the freedom of speech, freedom of self expression, reading this to see for themselves how the New Thought Police Operate I invite you to log onto the Internet Relay Chat (IRC Service) and witteness for themselves how Tacmachan and his associates have shut down room after room related to Zetatalk and EarthChanges and PoleShift upon Undernet, Efnet and others filled these rooms with false members (clone bots) and bots and degrade and humilate anyone that begins a discussion in these rooms. Invite you to their heir upon Undernet #zetatalk but be prepared to have your Firewalls fully engaged for your sure to come under attack with Dos Denial of Service attacks if your thoughts do not support or concure with the Ops of that room. An I invite you to meet those harmed who now reside in IRC Slashnet #Earthchanges.

If Freedom of Speech means anything to you. You will not let the thought police choose what your allowed to believe or believe not.

Thank you,

Solst
Edgars F
Slashnet #Earthchages Ops

[This is Solst, One of QueenVee's bully boy's on the IRC. A self confessed skeptic that displays all the hallmarks of a disciple.]

------o------

From: Jon Kvebaek <jkv@n...>
Date: Thu Jun 5, 2003 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: [tt-watch] In Reply to Tamachan

Just to make things clear, sci.astro is not a moderated newsgroup. There is no censorship, nor any means of blocking out posters to the group. So there really is no way of stopping anyone who wants to post there. On USENET we just hope people are intelligent enough to post on-topic. Some aren't.

------o------

From: "alsmith1928" <alsmith1928@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 5, 2003 9:58 pm
Subject: Re: In Reply to Tamachan

Just to be clear, sci.astro is an unmoderated newsgroup. Anybody can post there; there is no moderator to address a complaint to.

[snip]

> No Tacmachan science is in no danger to the likes of Nancy Lieder, QueenVee or Poleshift nor EarthChanges discussions. What is infact in danger is Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Independent Thought no matter how controversual.<

OK, if freedom of speech is so important, why is this discussion group moderated?

> I invite those who have a concern for the freedom of speech, freedom of self expression, reading this to see for themselves how the New Thought Police Operate I invite you to log onto the Internet Relay Chat (IRC Service) and witteness for themselves how Tacmachan and his associates have shut down room after room related to Zetatalk and EarthChanges and PoleShift upon Undernet, Efnet and others filled these rooms with false members (clone bots) and bots and degrade and humilate anyone that begins a discussion in these rooms.<

I've read the logs of many of the zetatalk chat sessions prior to the disruptions. I agree with you that the disruptions were reprehensible, but do you really think that free speech was allowed in those chat sessions? Anybody who disagreed with the moderator was immediately booted.

[snip]
> If Freedom of Speech means anything to you. You will not let the thought police choose what your allowed to believe or believe not.<

You can't use any of the zetatalk chat sessions as examples of free speech. The only true example of free speech that has been mentioned here is the newgroup sci.astro, where anybody is free to post anything they want to.

------o------

From: "Carlos Bravo" <matucana@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 5, 2003 9:37 pm
Subject: Re: In Reply to Tamachan

Well said!

I agree with you totally, free thought seems to really bug these thugs, their arguments are based on

"you are crazy and that is impossible,"

mean while there are people here who have had experiences, who have taken the time to look at EQ sites over the years and paid attention to the weather, not to mention looking at the latest scientific discoveries, most of the arguments i read here are based on OUTDATED IDEAS ABOUT THE UNIVERSE AND GRAVITY. the date came and whent but the ideas are valid and worthy of consideration.

------o------

From: "mrjralflenz" <jrl@u...>
Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003 6:37 am
Subject: Re: In Reply to Tamachan

--- In tt-watch@yahoogroups.com, "Edgars F" <vortogon@a...> wrote:

*snipped for brevity*

> No Tacmachan science is in no danger to the likes of Nancy Lieder, QueenVee or Poleshift nor EarthChanges discussions. What is infact in danger is Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Independent Thought no matter how controversual. An that threat comes from the likes of you and your associates whom have taken over #zetatalk undernet taken over to date twenty rooms upon the undernet, Efnet and several other networks of IRC Internet Relay Chat. You and your associates have closed down room after room where discussions and conversations have taken place. You and your associates have systematically hacked QueenVee's webstire, disrupted and even threatened with intimdation those that share in the views of Nancy and Queen's beliefs. And you continue your actions daily an nightly. Launching your attacks under the disguise of computer screen and software. <

First of all, QueenVee's web site was not hacked by anyone, or anything. As owner of the server hardware, all content contained therein, and as the guy who pays the bandwidth bill, I simply replaced the index.php file with one of my own creation. Nothing illegal was done, and it certainly wasn't "hacked" in any way, shape, or form. The site was restored after an agreement was reached to help me secure donations to cover the $2000 in excess bandwidth charges from attacks on my servers due to ZetaTalk chat sessions.

Second, #zetatalk on Undernet is registered to *me* (userid splatter). It always has been. I expedited the registration process on Undernet because I know a few people on the channel service committee, and did this for one reason only: to get ZetaTalk's chat sessions off of FunNet.

The systematic attacks of every ZT session for about 3 weeks straight were interrupting connectivity to my business servers for up to an hour at a time. My newly-formed company can not handle this sort of interruption of service. Additionally, as I have stated before, this has created a situation of financial hardship for me, because I was billed for excessive bandwidth usage on a metered line, as well as for the downtime my UPSTREAM provider experienced on their core routers, which could not service OTHER customers.

The funniest part in all of this is that the vast majority of the people who have donated to help solve this financial dilemma of mine are the very people you are insulting - and the FIRST donation came from Tamachan.

*snipped for brevity*

> I invite those who have a concern for the freedom of speech, freedom of self expression, reading this to see for themselves how the New Thought Police Operate I invite you to log onto the Internet Relay Chat (IRC Service) and witteness for themselves how Tacmachan and his associates have shut down room after room related to Zetatalk and EarthChanges and PoleShift upon Undernet, Efnet and others filled these rooms with false members (clone bots) and bots and degrade and humilate anyone that begins a discussion in these rooms. Invite you to their heir upon Undernet #zetatalk but be prepared to have your Firewalls fully engaged for your sure to come under attack with Dos Denial of Service attacks if your thoughts do not support or concure with the Ops of that room. An I invite you to meet those harmed who now reside in IRC Slashnet #Earthchanges.<

I own #zetatalk on Undernet. Regardless of what you think of the people who may be moderating this channel, nobody is DoSing anyone. If you can present me with accurate, unaltered firewall logs showing that one of my channel operators is doing something illegal, he/she will be removed immediately. However, until I receive such proof, I will not sit back and let you insult without valid proof.

I am not even going to say what I have to say about #earthchanges on slashnet, as I have been banned from this channel twice... once immediately upon entry, the second time after i was insulted by you personally (of course, I was at work, and idle, so I didn't even see your posts until long after the fact).

> If Freedom of Speech means anything to you. You will not let the thought police choose what your allowed to believe or believe not.<

My suggestion to you is that you practice what you preach, and learn to behave with more manners and less prejudice.

I have never been a believer in any of the messages that have been presented by ZetaTalk and its affiliate organization(s), or any of its supporters. Yet as a human being, I have suffered tremendous losses due to the message it propagates. The majority of the people who have helped me through this are those you label "abusers"... and the principal individual who has helped me through this is the very person you're directing so much anger and negativity toward.

You may not agree with an individual's means or ways, but as a HUMAN you have got to have some respect for an individual who has gone out of his way to help a total stranger recover from an unjust loss.

Regards,
- Ralf

J. Ralf Lenz
USTCO/accessoryXpress, LLC.
"He who lives by the sword, gets shot by he who doesn't."
-- Anonymous

Donations are still being accepted via PayPal to -> jrl at ustco.com

------o------

From: "mlistman" <mlistman@i...>
Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: In Reply to Tamachan

--- In tt-watch@yahoogroups.com, "mrjralflenz" <jrl@u...> wrote:
First of all, QueenVee's web site was not hacked by anyone, or anything. As owner of the server hardware, all content contained therein, and as the guy who pays the bandwidth bill, I simply replaced the index.php file with one of my own creation. Nothing illegal was done, and it certainly wasn't "hacked" in any way,
shape, or form. The site was restored after an agreement was reached to help me secure donations to cover the $2000 in excess bandwidth charges from attacks on my servers due to ZetaTalk chat sessions.<

If QueenV is the creator and maintainer of the web site's contents, then what you have done by replacing a file (without her knowledge I am presuming here) fits the definition of 'hacking'. However, as the provider of the services, you are within your legal right to make such changes (though it might be had to keep customers that way.)

> The systematic attacks of every ZT session for about 3 weeks straight were interrupting connectivity to my business servers for up to an hour at a time. My newly-formed company can not handle this sort of interruption of service. Additionally, as I have stated before, this has created a situation of financial hardship for me, because I was billed for excessive bandwidth usage on a metered line, as well as for the downtime my UPSTREAM provider experienced on their core routers, which could not service OTHER customers. I own #zetatalk on Undernet. Regardless of what you think of the people who may be moderating this channel, nobody is DoSing anyone.<

Well as you've stated above, the channel has come under 'systematic attacks', who is responsible for that? You would seem to be the one who could answer that question.

> I am not even going to say what I have to say about #earthchanges on slashnet, as I have been banned from this channel twice... once immediately upon entry, the second time after i was insulted by you personally (of course, I was at work, and idle, so I didn't even see your posts until long after the fact). I have never been a believer in any of the messages that have been presented by ZetaTalk and its affiliate organization(s), or any of its supporters. Yet as a human being, I have suffered tremendous losses due to the message it propagates. The majority of the people who have helped me through this are those you label "abusers"... and the principal individual who has helped me through this is the very person you're directing so much anger and negativity toward. You may not agree with an individual's means or ways, but as a HUMAN you have got to have some respect for an individual who has gone out of his way to help a total stranger recover from an unjust loss. Regards, - Ralf <

'Unjust loss'? that's very funny Ralf! Sounds like a money fishing, pity party and nothing else! (And why did your bandwidth overage bill drop from $3k to $2k?)

As the owner of ANY company (newly formed or otherwise) it is YOUR sole responsibility to mitigate, insure against, prevent, or otherwise reduce losses in all their forms. Owners who fail here usually don't stay in business very long. Anyone who provides server space on the internet is at least aware of server attacks and it
would only be the fool who does nothing to address them (especially when hosting such 'questionable' material.)

Using the 'I did it out of the goodness of my heart' excuse is highly irresponsible from a business standpoint. No matter how noble your intentions, if your charity has the potential of sabotaging your for-profit operations, then you are destined to be out of business soon.

Sorry Ralf, there is nothing 'unjust' here, only a failure to take care of YOUR business.

Michael Listman

[Basically thanks a lot for the free service, but if it put you out of pocket or in any hardship then "tough shit" that serves you right for offering help in the first place. Another fine example of an STO orientation. (These guy's wouldn't know an STO if it came up and bit their arse.)]

------o------

From: "mrjralflenz" <jrl@u...>
Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003 5:46 pm
Subject: Re: In Reply to Tamachan

--- In tt-watch@yahoogroups.com, "mlistman" <mlistman@i...> wrote:

*snipped for useless repetition*

> If QueenV is the creator and maintainer of the web site's contents, then what you have done by replacing a file (without her knowledge I am presuming here) fits the definition of 'hacking'. However, as the provider of the services, you are within your legal right to make such changes (though it might be had to keep customers that way.)<

In actuality, the site itself is a version of PHP-Nuke's web portal system that *I* did the design changes to. The only thing that QV has done with it is create actual text content.

Additionally, she's not a customer, she's never been charged for hosting, and there's never been a contract. The content and site framework are held on my server, at my will. The only financial connection between QV's site and the bill I incurred is that if the bill were to go unpaid, service to QV's site would be interrupted as well.

> Well as you've stated above, the channel has come under 'systematic attacks', who is responsible for that? You would seem to be the one who could answer that question.<

Please read more carefully. I registered #zetatalk on Undernet in order to move the channel away from FunNet -- AFTER the attacks had taken place, in a channel I did *NOT* maintain.

> 'Unjust loss'? that's very funny Ralf! Sounds like a money fishing, pity party and nothing else! (And why did your bandwidth overage bill drop from $3k to $2k?)<

The bill was $3082.53.

My normal charges are ~$1000-1020. I'm not asking to recover $3082.53, I'm asking to recover what was burned up by the attacks that I neither initiated nor provoked.

> As the owner of ANY company (newly formed or otherwise) it is YOUR sole responsibility to mitigate, insure against, prevent, or otherwise reduce losses in all their forms. Owners who fail here usually don't stay in business very long. Anyone who provides server space on the internet is at least aware of server attacks and it would only be the fool who does nothing to address them (especially when hosting such 'questionable' material.)<

I was not hosting questionable material. QueenVee's website was never the target of any attacks on my network, whatsoever. However, it *did* offer the opportunity to present a message to a large number of people in this particular community of users -- a community of users whose message has provoked and inflamed people enough that my network -- and personal financial situation -- has suffered.

> Using the 'I did it out of the goodness of my heart' excuse is highly irresponsible from a business standpoint. No matter how noble your intentions, if your charity has the potential of sabotaging your for-profit operations, then you are destined to be out of business soon. Sorry Ralf, there is nothing 'unjust' here, only a failure to take care of YOUR business. Michael Listman<

Michael, you are entitled to your opinion. If you feel this is a "money fishing pity party," then you are more than welcome to express that opinion by not donating.

For the record, I have owned another company in my lifetime (an ISP/hosting provider in Wisconsin), as well as worked for several technology companies, and have hosted IRC servers and friends' web sites since 1998. I've been attacked before (though never this extensively), and I'm sure I will be attacked again. If I am
responsible for drawing attacks on my own equipment, then that is something I have to deal with. If I am not responsible for provoking attackers, then why should I be responsible for the bill? The logic of "Well it's your network, and you hosted the service" would only apply if the ZetaTalk sessions had been *invited* by *me* to use my service, which I have repeately stated was not the case.

I believe I know how to operate a business, and balance for-profit and non-profit aspects appropriately. While advice and input are always welcome from anyone on a person-to-person level, I don't believe that a list such as this is the appropriate forum to attack someone's business management skills. Additionally, I do not believe that the rest of the readers of this list should be subjected to flames. That has never been my intent, nor should it be yours.

Much has been made, in various forums, about STS vs. STO in time of crisis. Well, to me, this is a crisis worthy of assistance and intervention. And as you are entitled to your opinion, Michael, I am also entitled to mine.

Regards,

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From: Michael L Cunningham <bogeystar@e...>
Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003 12:25 am
Subject: Re: [tt-watch] In Reply to Tamachan

I see there's no caution from the moderators for insulting or name calling?

Michael

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From: "Jan" <anybody@a...>
Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003 9:34 am
Subject: Re: [tt-watch] In Reply to Tamachan

"Michael L Cunningham" wrote:
I see there's no caution from the moderators for insulting or name calling? Michael,<

Not all list members are moderated. Originally, this was something you earned based upon certain qualities of the posted messages. As an extra precaution, after the failed predictions, all new members were put on moderation. This has earned us more work, but kept the lists more civilized, and helped keep a reasonable S/N ratio.
[Snag is it wasn't just new members. Anyone considered a threat was, and still is moderated/edited.]
That being said, the only problem with the original post was that the poster accused Tamachan specifically. Those that attacked the IRC chats deserve no protection from insults, but had the poster been on moderation at the time of this posting, I would personally have edited out the most fanciful descriptions from the posting, or asked him to edit it out himself.

Regards,
Jan

[Basically everyone is moderated, EXCEPT those Jan considers a disciple or true believer, who can say and do pretty much what they want, while everyone else is silenced under the banner of Jan's dictate. Besides as Jan himself states "he deserved it" based on Jan's own prejudice so that makes it doubly alright in his book. What a hypocrite.]

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