tttakeover

“Though many individuals are members in both groups, they are separate legal entities. This volunteer group is under no obligation to adhear to any of the Troubled Times, Inc. bylaws, nor is it under any restrictions or stipulations that grants to Troubled Times, Inc. may require.”

TT legal statement

The “takeover” came about primarily over the excuse of Michael Cunningham’s removal, or ban from the tt-groups, especially once he’d made it public that he was a skeptic. That combined with constantly questioning Nancy regarding statements concerning her fabled 12^th planet and also being one of her primary adversaries over on sci-astro, made him an immediate threat. To this end Nancy and her faithful set about, on many occasions, to call for his removal, leading to several “witch-hunts.” Luckily at that time the “posse” comprised mainly open-minded individuals that saw Michael’s possible use more of an advantage rather than a disadvantage, which unfortunately led to several open disagreements when they sided with Michael against Nancy’s own demands. At least up until February 2002.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8559
From: josX <joshb@x...>

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:08 am

Subject: List policy, reminder

>>At 09:48 PM 2/18/2002 -0800, : Tristan Faulkner wrote:

C'mon Michael, your debunking is starting to get desperate and is giving us a headache. Why dont you create your own list where you can attack Nancys' brilliant observations to your sheer delight? Some people are here to actually learn the TRUTH, not wade through the babble from yet another narrow minded astronomer who thinks that they (and humans in general) are the pinnacle of Gods creation.<<

>>Michael Cunnigham wrote:

If you read the header carefully Tristan, I just forwarded the message from sci.astro. I did a lot of research myself tonight on the supposed images at various wave lengths from the visible to the infrared and the circled images as Nancy's proposes as her planet also show up in the raw ESO images from 1998. Those faint 20+ magnitude stars haven't moved in five years. On some of the images the circles appear as noise and are hard to see especially when viewed in the GIF format. Checking the raw FITS images and reversing them to negatives clearly show both stars that Nancy has circled. If you wish to believe in Nancy's "brilliant" observations then be my guest. I only offer what I can fathom from my observations. Don't forget, I DO know which end of the telescope to look through.<<

When subscribing to tt-watch, i recieved the following message:

Message-ID: <1014112740.119.97238.m12@yahoogroups.com>

From: tt-watch Moderator <tt-watch-owner@yahoogroups.com>

To: joshb@..

Subject: Welcome to tt-watch

Troubled Times Watch - chatters about the topics in The Word section such as the government, UFO's, weather, news articles and yes, even a few conspiracy theories once in a while (until it gets personal). Not for social chatter, jokes, scientific rantings or ones personal dreams. We are not in the business of selling our ideas, or "converting" anyone, as these types of discussions seem to escolate into never ending debates. As time goes by and more and more members join this and our other groups, we will have much less time for tolerance of disruptive members and they will be removed without lengthy discussions. Those who do not abide by the list rules will be removed. The premise of Troubled Times is that cataclysmic changes are potentially in our future, and that preparation means assuming the worst of what geological and written history tell us. Please, visit http://www.zetatalk.com/thub.htm for more info.

So, i ask Cunningham to be removed from the tt-lists, because he does not subscribe to this premise, and he keeps these lists in the area of "if it is true", and is therefore disrupting what tt-* claims to want to do, which is move PAST the point of "if", and get on with the point P R E P A R E.

I also ask the moderators who are responsible for Cunninghams continued disruptions to be removed, or remove themselves. Of those i only know "Clipper" who actively suports Cunninghams disruptions, so i ask him to leave, because of failure to abide by the list rules.

Perhaps the entire ex-military contingent should be removed, because these people are just too close to the government/esthablishment agenda. I would much apreciate your stepping down and removing yourself from any power, i'm sure you can understand. Perhaps you can be retaken on an individual basis.

Thank you.

jos

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8560
From: <dr_whom36@t...>

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 11:13 am

Subject: Re: [tt-watch] List policy, reminder

Hi josX,

Has it really gone this far with you? Cunningham are 100% correct in this, the objects within Nancy's circles are also present (at *exactly* the same location) in the POSSII images, the same goes for the object she encircled on the Jan 5 image. If you don't believe it, why don't you check it out yourself? Maybe Cunningham can put up a simple webpage and clearly pointing out this FACT!

I don't understand you josX...

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8564
From: "Gantner, George" <George.Gantner@m...>

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:59 pm

Subject: Why Michael Cunningham is here

Several people have once again called for Michael Cunningham's removal by the posse (for you recent additions, that's what we moderators call ourselves). We are NOT inclined to do so, because of the role he is filling. Michael is a skeptic, but he is a skeptic with serious equipment and astronomical knowledge. He has searched for Planet X at the Zetas' coordinates on several occasions along with numerous other amateur astronomers who he engaged in the effort (unsuccessfully, since it's too soon to be seen by amateur equipment according to the Zetas). Review his posts to tt watch from May 17, 2001 to gain some insight into him and his motivations, starting with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/3881. Two telling excerpts from that post: "I would dearly love to discover an unknown planet/planetoid just to have my name attached to it! We all love a bit of fame and that's one of the driving factors for us amatuers."

"I can not nor will not try to convince you that this rogue planet does not exist. If it does make an appearance in 2003, I'll be the first in this group to post my apologies for failing to believe the unbelievable." These comments lead me to believe that he is and will continue to make a sincere effort to observe the planet on his own, and that he will keep us informed as to his findings. He has the motivation and the expertise. I for one want to continue to hear his comments, particularly if he keeps us from getting hysterical over something that might be a misinterpretation. I hope he reviews and comments on the .fits files of the recent observations, which are available at http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/rogue/haute006.htm .

He has also been polite (though sarcastic if reacting to an attack), and most of his comments have been on astronomical topics. He has played by our rules. If you want to see him with his gloves off, read some of the recent sci.astro conversation on imaging Planet X. Blind belief in the Zetas and their message should not be a requirement here. An open mind and serious logical inquiry should be welcomed and
encouraged.

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8567
From: josX <joshb@x...>

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:58 pm

Subject: Re: [tt-watch] Why Michael Cunningham is here

>From: "Gantner, George" <George.Gantner@m...>

Several people have once again called for Michael Cunningham's removal by the posse (for you recent additions, that's what we moderators call ourselves).<

Posse: (eng->dutch dictionary)

(police)power; crowd, gang; ~ (comitatus) men above 15 years, who a sheriff can call to help with rioting; ...

Why don't you just call yourself moderators like every other moderator.

> We are NOT inclined to do so, because of the role he is filling. Michael is a skeptic,<

It is irrelevant what YOU or this "posse" want:

THIS are the RULES:

> If you want to see him with his gloves off, read some of the recent sci.astro conversation on imaging Planet X. Blind belief in the Zetas and their message should not be a requirement here. An open mind and serious logical inquiry should be welcomed and encouraged.<

Have seen this before ?:

Troubled Times Watch - chatters about the topics in The Word section such as the government, UFO's, weather, news articles and yes, even a few conspiracy theories once in a while (until it gets personal). Not for social chatter, jokes, scientific rantings or ones personal dreams. We are not in the business of selling our ideas, or "converting" anyone, as these types of discussions seem to escolate into never ending debates. As time goes by and more and more members join this and our other groups, we will have much less time for
tolerance of disruptive members and they will be removed without lengthy discussions. Those who do not abide by the list rules will be removed. The premise of Troubled Times is that cataclysmic changes are potentially in our future, and that preparation means assuming the worst of what geological and written history tell us. Please, visit http://www.zetatalk.com/thub.htm for more info.

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8568
From: Beenthdonedat@a...

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:12 pm

Subject: Re: [tt-watch] Why Michael Cunningham is here

>>In a message dated 02/19/2002 8:04:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, George.Gantner@m... Writes: Two telling excerpts from that post: (Cunninhams) "I would dearly love to discover an unknown planet/planetoid just to have my name attached to it! We all love a bit of fame and that's one of the driving factors for us amatuers." "I can not nor will not try to convince you that this rogue planet does not exist. If it does make an appearance in 2003, I'll be the first in this group to post my apologies for failing to believe the unbelievable."<<

With all due respect George, to judge what MC decides to print on a message may not be as easy as it appears. Because if he is working to debunk Nancy's claims, he will obviously go to extents such as posing as friendly and common sense minded just to gain people's trust. If so, also, he would not be working along, but with a whole array of helpers working on all kinds of tasks to make his "existence" more believable. Let's face it, an astronomer, a real astronomer, with real knowledge, *if SO skeptical as MC*, wouldn't give this issue the time of day, he'd be like "screw this assholes, they are f**nk nuts." Because it he was so convinced of the implausibility of the existence of the 12th, he wouldn't have anything to prove to the 300 people (170 when he joined) on a "chat board" like ours. But his behavior IS very suspicious, and the fact that he has a web site with a picture of a driveway and his niece doesn't prove anything. When the CBOT bust took place and a bunch of traders got busted for "front running" their customers accounts (a more than common practice) the FBI had its provocateurs effectively trained in Switzerland on the art of trading and everything else that they should know, and then infiltrated the CBOT floor, where then they dined and wined the unsuspected traders (usually newbies) to bust them for usually no more than 5 to 10 dollars "front running" on their accounts. Now, this was done for political reasons.

My point is, there is no limit to what the government and it's "allies" would
do to infiltrate and disrupt any giving group, just ask yourself a question, how important is the issue at hand? The action taken by the government will be directly proportional, in size and resources, to the importance the issue at hand is purported to have.

In MC's case I think that we are asking the wrong questions.

>>>In a message dated 02/19/2002 8:04:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, George.Gantner@m... writes: These comments lead me to believe that he is and will continue to make a sincere effort to observe the planet on his own, and that he will keep us informed as to his findings. <<<..

What makes you so sure that he will share anything with us? How do you know that he doesn't work for a major observatory and probably already has a 6’ tall poster of PlanetX on his bedroom wall?

Since none of us here, I believe, is willing to play detective, and try to find out who MC works for; then why don't we just concentrate on defining whether his conduct is consistently disruptive or not, and apply by the rules. Otherwise, it will be much more difficult to concentrate and decide on (and consider) to remove disrupters later on, if the moderators start cutting slack to people based on other than just the rules of the TT lists.

We could define disruption first and then move from there...

1. To throw into confusion or disorder.

2. To interrupt or impede the progress, movement, or procedure of.....

Horatio.

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8570
From: josX <joshb@x...>

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:50 pm

Subject: Re: [tt-watch] Why Michael Cunningham is here

Here is something to think about:

Cunningham is ex-mill. "the posse" is ex-mill. Charlene had some sort of millitary bisnis or DoD or whatever.

If what you say is right about government responce, it sure wouldn't be past them to install a "posse" somewhere at TT or ZT to have influence if possible. What better place to disrupt the preparations, halt belief in ZT and garner souls than being the moderator of the ZT/TT mailing lists. Clipper has already been found soliciting for people to join him in Alaska as i heard, he wanted to have "several groups join him" (second hand report). Cunningham was charged by V.R.G who are imho honest people, and V.R.G. were promptly removed from the lists for so-called "spamming", by the "posse".

From what i have seen sofar in "posse" responses (and their actions, like stalling my posts on crucial points (therefore i always label them with the date) and the removal of the wrong people), all my red light's are burning if you know what i mean.

But all that aside, the posse has violated tt-* charters, and must therefore be removed in it's entirity from power over tt-lists and anything and everything concerning with ZT and TT because:

1. They violated charter themselves, as moderators.

2. You just cannot have untrusted people running these lists.

thank,
jos

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8572
From: brian_gillbanks@l...

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:53 pm

Subject: tt-paranoia Re: [tt-watch] Why Michael Cunningham is here

Jos ....Joseph

X ....24th letter of the Greek alphabet. Not in good order or condition, amiss; not what is required or intended, unsuitable, inappropriate: leading in, tending to, direction other than what is intended, desired, or expected....etc, etc.

It's amazing what you can find in a dictionary.

Jos if you're after heads why not go straight to the top and ask for Nancy's removal. (Her dad did work for the President and was in the military. Could be she's CIA as well.)

Shit come to think of it I'll have to go as well - I'm a..a... sceptic....Arghhhhhh. But then...

Sceptic....One who doubts the possibility of real knowledge of any kind: one who doubts the Christian or of all religious doctrines: person of sceptical temper, or unconvinced of the truth of a particular fact or theory.

Hell I'm happy with the definition so why not remove everyone and just leave
you?

Sorry couldn't resist. However as you so promptly pointed out. This is TT-Watch not TT-Paranoia, besides I own that domain. If you've got a beef take it to the appropriate authorities and e-mail address. We're not interested .....as our indoctrination is complete.... and now we totally obey.... resistance is futile.... exterminate .... exterminate.

Brian (Angel Isle)

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8579
From: "thesmallkahuna" <thesmallkahuna@y...>

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:21 pm

Subject: Re: Why Michael Cunningham is here

--- In tt-watch@y..., Beenthdonedat@a... wrote: With all due respect George, to judge what MC decides to print on a message may not be as easy as it appears. Because if he is working to debunk Nancy...

This, of course, is just completely ridiculous. (Almost) all of the PX postings generate large amounts of responses on sci.astro, many from those "professional" astronomers you claim should show such disinterest.

>When the CBOT bust took place and a bunch of traders got busted for "front running" their customers accounts (a more than common practice) the FBI had its provocateurs effectively trained in Switzerland on the art of trading and everything else that they should know, and then infiltrated the CBOT floor, where then they dined and wined the unsuspected traders (usually newbies) to bust them for usually no more than 5 to 10 dollars "front running" on their accounts.<

Um, what does this have to do with the price of cheese in Switzerland?

> Now, this was done for political reasons. My point is, there is no limit to what the government and it's "allies" would do to infiltrate and disrupt any giving group, just ask yourself a question, how important is the issue at hand? The action taken by the government will be directly proportional, in size and resources, to the importance the issue at hand is purported to have.<

Actually, if you want to go off into a conspiracy theory direction I would believe that the Government would be better served by *feeding* the fringe nature of the PX believers rather than debunking. If you feed the credibility by trying to argue the point as though it were a serious position to take in any way, next comes the fringe elements of the media and soon enough it is on NBC nightly news. On the other hand if it is just a bunch of wacked out kooks tied up in all of this new-age religious mumbo jumbo it is much easier to ignore by everybody. Remember Lincoln? Can't fool all the people all the time?

If you are a sheep, you do not need to worry about the wolf, because if you see one, you *know* it is dangerous. You need to worry about the other sheep with the hair slightly out of place and the funny shaped ears.

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8580
From: "jameschrishawk" <jhawk@a...>

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:06 pm

Subject: Re: Why Michael Cunningham is here

josx,
now who is disrupting this group ? you.

quote from zetatalk : "The Service-to-Self entity will then proceed to attempt to disable the attack, by diverting the attack onto another or some sort of diversionary tactic." classic example of this, your attack of the TTlist moderators. You switched from attacking MC to diverting the attention to the moderators.

Jhawk

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8582

From: Beenthdonedat@a...

Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:44 am

Subject: Re: [tt-watch] Re: Why Michael Cunningham is here

----In a message dated 02/19/2002 3:27:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
thesmallkahuna@y... writes: If you are a sheep, you do not need to worry about the wolf, because if you see one, you *know* it is dangerous. You need to worry about the other sheep with the hair slightly out of place and the funny shaped ears.<

Hi, actually I wasn't trying to scare anybody. I was trying to convey that if MC was a professional disrupter, proving it, was going to be a different story. And I thought that the moderators and everyone would be better served if they just consider the posts and their tone, not the poster. I, sometimes, found myself out of line too, and that's disruptive behavior.

Horatio.

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8584
From: "Clipper Ordiway" <clip642@m...>

Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:28 am

Subject: Bad tactics (Was: Why Michael Cunningham is here)

-------JosX wrote: Here is something to think about: Cunningham is ex-mill. More than likely "the posse" is ex-mill.<<

You don't even know who the Posse is, how could you make such a statement? If not for the Posse, there would be no list today. If you must know, I will tell you my military experience. I joined the Army (U.S.) in 1978. For employment mostly and dental work. I wanted to become a draftsman but was not allowed as I didn't have enough experience with the math it took. I chose to become a Military Policeman because I saw this poster with this cool looking guy sitting in his patrol car and thought, "I can do that". I was first stationed at Ft. Meade, Md. Hated the place as it was nothing but brass walking around every where. I did manage to become a member of the firing squad used for funerals. Probably the only honorable job I ever had that made any sense. My time there was up at the end of 1989. I had always wanted to go to Alaska, but before I could even ask to be sent there (probably a good thing I never had to ask as they would not have sent me here. That's how they work.), I got orders for just where I wanted to go anyway. From there, I was stationed at Ft. Wainwright, Alaska until July of 1983. I worked as a military Policeman (Post traffic), our unit Armoror and our unit Mail clerk all at the same time. There were some fun times, but not many. I hated the military and still wake up in a cold sweat sometimes where I had a nightmare that I was back in it. I promptly got the hell out when my tour of duty was up. I learned a few things, but was sure glad when my time was up. I ain't never going back.

>>>>Charlene had some sort of millitary bisnis or DoD or whatever.<<<<

She can speak for herself.

>>>>If what you say is right about government responce, it sure wouldn't be past them to install a "posse" somewhere at TT or ZT to have influence if possible. What better place to disrupt the preparations, halt belief in ZT and garner souls than being the moderator of the ZT/TT mailing lists.<<<<

Thats funny man. That one made me chuckle:-

>>>>Clipper has already been found soliciting for people to join him in Alaska as i heard, he wanted to have "several groups join him" (second hand report).<<<<

Now your stepping over the line. Deformation of character is about as low as one get get and a tactic used widely by those who wish to destroy and disrupt. I have never had a problem discussing Alaska with anyone (until now, as that ends, thanks to you).

>>>>Cunningham was charged by V.R.G who are imho honest people, and V.R.G. were promptly removed from the lists for so-called "spamming", by the "posse".<<<<

Negative. Should you ask them your self, they will tell you they respected our rules and decided not to post here. We never had to do anything but ask.

>>>>From what i have seen sofar in "posse" responses (and their actions, like stalling my posts on crucial points (therefore i always label them with the date) and the removal of the wrong people), all my red light's are burning if you know what i mean.<<<<

This is an automated email message to let you know that joshb@x... joined your tt-watch group. (Sent: Tue 2/19/02 12:59 AM) This is an automated email message to let you know that joshb@x... unsubscribed from your tt-watch group. (Sent: Tue 2/19/02 2:32 PM) So, it looks like we have a hit and run here. But, the obvious answer is, a dual personality. How could anyone stall your posts if you were only here a few hours to write a nasty letter under an assumed name and leave where you can read it under another name?

>>>>But all that aside, the posse has violated tt-* charters, and must therefore be removed in it's entirity from power over tt-lists and anything and everything concerning with ZT and TT because:

1. They violated charter themselves, as moderators.

2. You just cannot have untrusted people running these lists.<<<<

Keep dreaming.

Clipper

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8587
From: josX <joshb@x...>

Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:13 pm

Subject: Bad tactics (Was: Why Michael Cunningham is here)

>>From: "Clipper Ordiway" <[25]clip642@m...> You don't even know who the Posse is, how could you make such a statement? If not for the Posse, there would be no list today.

That would be my option of choice.

JOS X

------o------

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8590

From: LauraMacd@a...

Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:10 pm

Subject: Re: [tt-watch] Why Michael Cunningham is here

----In a message dated 2/19/02 11:04:30 AM, George.Gantner@m... writes:

<< he is a skeptic with serious equipment and astronomical knowledge. He has searched for Planet X at the Zetas' coordinates on several occasions >>

Well stated, George! Of course we should all be happy that someone with a serious telescope is looking for X. Who cares why? Glad you're here Michael. Laura (in list member mode)

<< If not for the Posse, there would be no list today.>> from Clipper

-----In a message dated 2/20/02 7:16:29 AM, joshb@x... writes:

<<That would be my option of choice.>>

This is just meaningless disruption from Josh; appropriate on none of the tt lists, not even Social. That's enough, Josh. (who just posted and then unsubscribed, as is his MO) Laura (in moderator mode)

-----o-----

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8564

From: "Gantner, George" George.Gantner@m...

Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:59 pm

Subject: Why Michael Cunningham is here

Several people have once again called for Michael Cunningham's removal by the posse (for you recent additions, that's what we moderators call ourselves). We are NOT inclined to do so, because of the role he is filling. Michael is a skeptic, but he is a skeptic with serious equipment and astronomical knowledge. He has searched for Planet X at the Zetas' coordinates on several occasions along with numerous other amateur astronomers who he engaged in the effort (unsuccessfully, since it's too soon to be seen by amateur equipment according to the Zetas). Review his posts to tt-watch from May 17, 2001 to gain some insight into him and his motivations, starting with:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/3881

Two telling excerpts from that post:

<<"I would dearly love to discover an unknown planet/planetoid just to have my name attached to it! We all love a bit of fame and that's one of the driving factors for us amatuers.">>

<<"I can not nor will not try to convince you that this rogue planet does not exist. If it does make an appearance in 2003, I'll be the first in this group to post my apologies for failing to believe the unbelievable.">>

These comments lead me to believe that he is and will continue to make a sincere effort to observe the planet on his own, and that he will keep us informed as to his findings. He has the motivation and the expertise. I for one want to continue to hear his comments, particularly if he keeps us from getting hysterical over something that might be a misinterpretation. I hope he reviews and comments on the .fits files of the recent observations, which are available at: http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/rogue/haute006.htm He has also been polite (though sarcastic if reacting to an attack), and most of his comments have been on astronomical topics. He has played by our rules. If you want to see him with his gloves off, read some of the recent sci.astro conversation on imaging Planet X. Blind belief in the Zetas and their message should not be a requirement here. An open mind and serious logical inquiry should be welcomed and encouraged.

-----o-----

On on 24th Feb 2002 (Entry 8700) it all culminated when Jan Rypdal, TT-INC Internal auditor/treasurer and member of the TT groups moved to have both Laura and George removed as moderators simply for defending Michael’s right to remain on the lists.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8700

From: "Jan" <anybody@a...>

Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 6:36 pm

Subject: Dismissal of the TT Posse?

TT Members & Listers,

It is obvious to me that the TT Posse (or so-called "List Police") is not fulfilling its purpose.

Lately, we have had Laura McDonald calling JosX a disruptor because he questioned the Posse, and stating that she's "Glad you're here Michael" to our infamous disruptor. A few months ago she also got into a heated debate on TT Watch about STO or STS, implants etc. where she clearly showed she did not understand the TT premises.

[Notice how Jan decides who is and is not considered a disrupter, two of the posse don’t but he still considers himself a majority.]

George Ganter recently stated that "Michael is a skeptic, but he is a skeptic with serious equipment and astronomical knowledge. He has searched for Planet X at the Zetas' coordinates on several occasions along with numerous other amateur astronomers who he engaged in the effort [...]", even though Michael himself has stated that he will not search for Planet X until the Zetas say it can be seen in amateur telescopes.

George also mentioned Sol, who stepped down from the TT Board a few months ago due to his inappropriate behavior in attacking another TT officer, namely Nancy. Previously, Sol had stated in an e-mail to another disruptor (remember Christer, anyone?) that he thought Nancy was insane, whereupon said disruptor forwarded that e-mail to Nancy & me. Is Sol still a member of the Posse?

[Sol didn’t attack Nancy, Nancy attacked Sol and although he resigned he was left with no alternative effectively driven off the lists just as Ron Darby had been so forced before.]

The TT Posse as it currently operates seems to quietly encourage attacks on
Nancy or her "followers" to the level where the TT Watch list is losing its
focus. (There are a few Posse members I highly respect and never would
accuse of supporting any such attacks, namely Clipper and Brent. It may seem they are outnumbered by the rest of the Posse when it comes to allowing the current misconduct on the TT Watch list.)

[By excluding Clipper and Brent he is hinting at all other “posse” members, but remember tt-watch is owned by Clipper if he goes tt-watch goes with him. Besides they’re both big boys if they had felt outnumbered why isn’t it them that are addressing the membership?]

In addition to the postings from Michael L Cunningham, I find a number of recent postings out of line without any comment whatsoever from the Posse. Such postings have been noted from Otto Zork, Bill Glenn, Brian Gillbanks, Stephen Spiesser et al. This has also lead to a number of their followers making themselves heard with negative comments, still without a word from the Posse.

[He finds? Who elected him chief moderator? TT-INC cannot interfere remember. And now he’s naming co-conspirators trying to initiate a witch-hunt, which didn’t work by the way.

Given the current state of the TT Posse, I hereby call for the dismissal of this group as the TT list moderators, to be replaced by an appointed officer acting as the primary TT List Moderator. For this position, I would like to nominate Clipper. (I do know that Clipper will be unavailable for much of this summer, but still think he is the right man for this position.)

[Clipper was already owner and head moderator. Due to his own survival obligations couldn’t take on full time responsibility that’s why he’s assigned moderator positions to those Jan is now trying to remove. He knows damn well Clipper will have to refuse. He just wants to take the position himself.]

The TT Moderator can himself appoint assistants as necessary. In addition, all members of the TT Board should be able to step in as moderators if needed.

[Due to their own contractual obligations TT-Inc officers are not allowed to interfer with the group. Jan is calling for a breech of the contract.]

Regards,
Jan

-----o-----

This was followed instantly by a seconding from another TT-INC officer who coincidently was online at the same time.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8701

From: "mw3172001" <milly@w...>
Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:16 pm
Subject: Re: Dismissal of the TT Posse?

I agree, Jan. I see many instances on other lists where these negative comments by current tt-members are played to advantage when they can crow:

[Of course she does she’s a TT-Inc officer that, if you check the archives, tries very hard at agreeing with everything Nancy, Jan and the Zeta disciples have to say.]

"Even TT members are saying Nancy is crazy." "Even TT members are saying the purpose of implants is just to control their minds for evil purposes." The people on this list should support the premise of the Troubled Times website. If they have a change of heart and suddenly cannot believe in benevolent aliens or Planet X, they should go quietly and politely away, not start trying to sabotage the group.

[Nobody’s sabotaged anything all they’ve done is try and support Michael’s continuance on the list. Everyone else mentioned has simply voiced skeptisism or questioned some of Nancy’s statements. Hardly a conspiracy.]

I agree with your assessments of the posse. There are many ways to sabotage the Planet X message, and it's so much easier if it is done by insiders.

[She’s now infering that the posse is somehow trying to sabotage the groups from inside.]

I'm politely asking those of the posse and others on this list: If you do not support the premise of Troubled Times please do not post to or moderate this list. We do not want or need to be converted to your new religion. We do not need to be saved by you or your new gods.

[Now we’re on a different planet. No one’s mentioned any new religion. No one’s said anything about any new Gods. So what the hell is she going on about?]

Respect our beliefs and allow us to express them here in peace without snide remarks from you. Thank you.

Milly

-----o-----

Almost instantly Nancy appeared, who under normal circumstances is nowhere to be found unless she has something important to say, but on this occasion as if sitting on the sidelines waiting for her cue.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tt-watch/message/8706

From: "nancylieder" <zetatalk@z...>

Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 8:23 pm

Subject: Re: Dismissal of the TT Posse?

Since Milly and Jan, long (since the beginning of TT) have in essence called for a votecall by the membership of TT (those who have contributed) I'll put forth a votecall on this matter. Will be done before the sun sets here in the west (i.e. the US). I also have felt for some time that the tt-possee was not doing its job, and in fact had been setup by questionable influences. As was tt-welcome, which sent ALL off to Hazelwood, after it had been clear by Brent post that he was out to scam money from all! And had been BANNED by the very posse whom Sol was a member of!

[Of course she didn’t think they were doing their job. This same “posse” nearly banned her from her own groups over the “Sol fiasco”. (Sol, mentioned above was also a moderator driven from the lists by the TT-INC. He disagreed with Nancy over a former member called Hazelwood who set up his own group discussing the 12th planet , but whom Nancy repeatedly and frequently accuses of being a con artist and thief for stealing her material. Hazelwood set up what is know as the Prep2003 group which is similar to TT, based on members whom Sol was defending at the time of his attack. (Again all in the archives.) The attack was so brutal from both Nancy and TT-INC officers that Sol had no real alternative but to stand down and leave. Indeed, Nancy in a childish fit threatened to disassociate herself from the group if he remained. So she took great pleasure in bringing up his name at every opportunity as he wasn’t around to defend himself.)]

-----o-----

From this point on moves were made toward the vote call, which was supposed to be based on contributing members. Unfortunately it turned out to be a complete and utter farce as half those members didn’t even get a vote form. Secondly the form itself was so biased there was no way it could be considered impartial and third arranged in such a manner as to cause maximum confusion.

In a message dated 2/24/02 5:23:44 PM, lieder@b... writes:

A VoteCall has been made as a result of an issue documented below and brought to this votecall by Milly and Jan, longstanding and originating members of Troubled Times. Those of you who have contributed to content of TT are voting members, per the rules setup and approved by the early contributing member to deal with such issues. As you are a contributing member, and content on the TT site, you have received the votecall ballot.

The issue is posted below the ballot.

Nancy, web mistress and founder of Troubled Times.

[ ] Yes, I think tt-posse should be disbanded, as not operating in accordance with the Troubled Times premises and the purposes of the mailing lists.

[ ] No, leave tt-possee as is, or alternatively

[ ] Keep tt-posse but change the Marshals roster, and

[ ] Nominate/retain Clipper

[ ] Nominate/retain Brent

[ ] Nomnate/retain Gerard

[ ] Nominate/retain Laura

[ ] Nominate Jan (NEW)

[ ] Nominate Milly (NEW

[ ] Nominate as Marshal ________________________ (NEW)

[Notice how the vote form is confusing? You have separate issues covering the same votecall. Plus not all the posse “as is” is listed among the separate list names.]

In addition to the issues in the tt-watch posting below, there was earlier an
issue that may not be known to all:

*Sol, as a member of both tt-posse and tt-watch, who sent all member of tt-welcome to the Mark Hazelwood site AFTER Hazelwood had been banned by tt-possee for soliciting money openly on the mailing list, and AFTER tt-possee member Brent (current President of the nonprofit arm) had made this known to Sol that he personally had been taken for $100 by Hazelwood.

[Hazelwood may or may not be a scam artist, but Sol did not send anyone to him. He suggested they might check out the Prep2003 lists, who I might add have nothing to do with Hazelwood anymore. She’s twisting the truth.]

*Laura MacDonald was invited to be a tt-possee member by Sol, without a votecall among the membership, for no apparent reason other than selection by Sol.

[Wrong again, only Clipper can assign moderators. Sol may have suggested it, but the choice is his not Sol’s]

*To those unaware of this, Sol cannot return to the US due to criminal issues, and though a member of the bar in Israel is not currently working as an attorney in Israel due to issues with the Israel police.

[More truth twisting. Sol was disbarred as a lawyer and is not one of America’s most wanted.]

This is per his own words, in private e-mail, and was the reason for his sudden exodus when tt-welcome was shuttedled over to the Hazelwood mailing lists.

[Yes, told in confidence which she now uses to try and discredit, proving just how unscrupulous Nancy really is. Manipulation at its best and hardly something the so called “STO” would ever do.]

I, as the ZetaTalk author and founder of Troubled Times, threatened to dissociate myself from Troubled Times if such support of documented scam artist continued. Proof of the intent of these financial scams is posted below, the open letter from Brent.

[The famous “wobbler” Nancy threw to try and manipulate the groups, forcing Sol to resign. However it nearly got her banned which is what all this is really about.]

Troubled Times will be very important during the coming year, and it should be noted that a VERY SMALL group of people in controlling positions can do a GREAT DEAL of damage.

[Remember nobody’s done anything thus far, they’re already guilty through association only.]

The simple message of warning, and the accuracy of ZetaTalk, is a threat to many who would rather the public NOT know so as to reduce panic. Planet X, aka Nibiru, aka the 12th Planet has not only been sighted at the Zeta coordinates last Spring, it is now being imaged as it MOVES by infrared cameras. ZetaTalk accuracy has once again been verified.

[Another lie the 12^th planet hadn’t been sighted except fro Havas’ alleged visual, which proved to be yet another lie. Neither had it been verified and Zeta accuracy is now a joke due to the Zeta “white lies”.]

We should not allow corruption from within at this important time.

[What she means is “we should not allow independent thought at this time.”]

The Troubled Times message is too important, to the people of the world. Please cast your ballot in accordance with your conscience, and provide a COPY to Clipper at clipper642@m... and to BRENT at brenfree@e... by doing a reply-all to this e-mail.

The premises of Troubled Times is found on the home page, approved by votecall, as follows: Troubled Times believes that a world-wide cataclysm, of massive proportions, will strike the Earth in the year 2003. The cause of this natural event will be a monster planet, known to the ancients but as yet undiscovered by modern man, which will pass very near the earth as part of its normal 3,600 year orbit around the sun.

[The same premises that states TT-Inc cannot interfere, yet here it is interfering.]

The premises, as found on the Premises page at http://www.zetatalk.com/thub02.htm New members should bear in mind that the premise of Troubled Times is that cataclysmic changes are potentially in our future, and that preparation means assuming the worst of what geological and written history tell us. The worst case assumptions include: ...

-----o-----

----- Original Message -----

From: Sol

To: Nancy ; yahbo@pacbell.net ; jakaby@midbc.com ; veronique.lepine@cisi.cnes.fr ; Vrooney@aol.com ; coolbus@webtv.net ; fruitloopsboy@cogeco.ca ; Wendy@wendyjensen.com ; wayne49s@netscape.net ; lammers@mtnhome.com ; tmorris@thuntek.net ; SMackLT@aol.com ; Toni ; tedwards@psknet.com ; harmont@trinitydc.edu ; tian.boon@sympatico.ca ; Schrock21@aol.com ; san3@sensewave.com ; TyphoonT45@aol.com ; eaglewoman56@hotmail.com ; Teri1956@aol.com ; pasoue1@globetrotter.net ; finucane@adsnet.com ; svnmn@yahoo.com ; stevehavas@yahoo.com ; sjpritchard@telstra.com ; steveferguson@compuserve.com ; spiesser@bluep.com ; Irma Marshall ; spud@emailme.net ; slugga659@aol.com ; mhmhmh@alles.or.jp ; Shirley Short ; shekhina_shaman@bigfoot.com ; scott@you52.com

Cc: clip642@mosquitonet.com

Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2002 12:59 PM

Subject: Re: VoteCall on tt-posse Issue : Troubled Times

Hello,

I thought long and hard whether this absurd "document" warrants a decent reply at all. It's an unbelievable conglomeration of lies upon stupidity, from beginning to end. Should such insanity be addressed at all?Well, since it's not healthy or nice to disseminate malicious lies, I decided that some things needed to be said after all.

First of all, you will notice that Nancy's letter, which purports to be a vote about the Posse, is not about the posse at all. It's about me, Sol, I'm the main character there.

Why? Am I on the Posse? Am I even posting on any of the TT lists? No.

So, WHAT HAVE I TO DO WITH ANY OF THIS? Why have I been made into an issue once more?

Well, if you can think at all, you will see that the inclusion of my name in this "letter" is meant to do one thing and one thing only - to create a wrong impression in your, the reader's, mind. After you're done reading about the Evil Sol, all you want to do is kill. This is a letter to incite a lynch mob, not any kind of "democratic vote".

Dragging my name into that vote on a TT issue is an incredibly ugly attempt by your increasingly senile leader, Nancy, to goad you into making a wrong decision.

What makes this attempt by Nancy a million times more ugly, is that what she says about me in this letter IS ALL A LIE, from beginning to end.

When confronted with so many little lies it's hard to know where to start, but I'll try anyway.

Nancy wrote:

Laura MacDonald was invited to be a tt-possee member by Sol, without a votecall among the membership, for no apparent reason other than selection by Sol.

This is the biggest bunch of bunk I've ever seen, ONE BIG LIE. But I have received Laura's letter, and can see that she has cordially addressed this issue already. Nancy herself was glad that Laura joined, but has now decided to lie about this. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY TALK ABOUT ANY VOTE-CALL AMONG THE MEMBERS ABOUT *ANY* OF THE POSSE MEMBERS!!! So how come Nancy perverts the truth now by making it seem, first of all, that a Votecall should have been held, and second, that I somehow circumvented this "rule"?

Nancy, in your desire to control the minds of others, you use some of the ugliest truth-twisting techniques I've ever read about. A classic of all Terror Regimes, this twisting of the truth.

There is one other thing: Nancy herself was invited to join the Posse because I told Brent and Clipper that she should be there. Just ask them, or anybody still on the tt-posse who can read the messages there.

To those unaware of this, Sol cannot return to the US due to criminal issues, and though a member of the bar in Israel is not currently working as an attorney in Israel due to issues with the Israel police. This is per his own words, in in private e-mail, and was the reason for his sudden exodus when tt-welcome was shuttedled over to the Hazelwood mailing lists. I, as the ZetaTalk author and founder of Troubled Times, threatened to dissociate myself from Troubled Times if such support of documented scam artist continued.

I've said this several times on the TT, and I'm not ashamed of it. Nancy chooses to say, "for those who are unaware of this" - to make it seem as if I'm hiding something. But I'm not. Yes, I have been denied entry into the US before, because in 1980, at the age of 21, I was convicted for trying to sell two ounces of marijuana to a narcotics agent.

However, IT IS A DIRTY LIE to say that I'm not working as a lawyer due to issues with the Israel police. If I WERE still a Lawyer, or even cared about things like that, I'd sue your ass for this ugly, and I may add, absolutely unnecessary, slander. Well, I may still get mad enough to do it, so I suggest you watch your step with writing this shit in the future.

Yes, I had a run in with the Israeli police, because I tried to protect a person from being wrongly arrested at a party. I did write about it to Nancy nearly two years ago, foolish me, to think that an ego-maniac like Nancy could keep a confidence.

I've already described my reasons for not being a Lawyer many times, and don't want to clutter your time with it again. Briefly, I feel that it's a job for mean people, and I'm not one.BUT - THE INCIDENT WITH THE POLICE HAPPENED AFTER I STOPPED WORKING AS A LAWYER.

Nancy, who has worked so hard to discredit the Establishment and its enforcement arm, the Police, should be HAPPY that one among your membership is BRAVE ENOUGH to actually confront the police when they're being needlessly brutal or cruel. According to you, Nancy, you've had lots more "encounters" with forces within the police and the military than myself! So why harp on this? Because when Nancy has no real argument, she turns into a manipulative liar, that's why.

Anyhow, my local incident with the Police is long ago closed. But to say that I'm not able to be a Lawyer here because of it - that's A MALICIOUS LIE, typical of what Nancy likes to produce.

Nancy's statement that "this was the reason for my sudden exodus from the tt" - is the height of hypocrisy and perversion. It's plain sick, that's what it is.

I left the TT because Nancy and her pet dog Jan had conducted a systematic witch-hunt against me there, using a constant barrage of never-ending lies and misrepresentations as their main tactic. I left in disgust, not willing to dirty myself further by being publicly assosciated with such horrible people. I urge you all to do the same.

Now you can see most of the lies in that letter.

Again the question has to be asked, WHY WAS IT NECESSARY TO DRAG SOL INTO AN ARGUMENT ABOUT TODAY'S POSSE?

Only your egotistical leader knows the answer to that. This ends the Exposed Lies Section of this message.

Unfortunately, there's also more, beyond the lies. The fact that Nancy has sent this letter at all, is the clearest indication we've had lately that she has gone completely senile. Either that, or her hatred has made her blind, one of the two.

First of all, WHY IS THIS VOTE SECRET? Why is it being sent privately to "contributing members", instead of being voted on by the greater TT membership?

I mean, this is a vote about the moderators of the TT lists, right? In that case, elementary justice would dictate, that it should be voted on by the membership the the TT lists. Not some secret group who vote away from the public eye. Some "democratic process" indeed.

Instead, this is being voted on by people we've never heard of, who somehow made it into Nancy's Little List of Contacts. Who in the world are the recepients of this message?

NOT the members of the TT whom we know. Maybe it's the people who contributed something to the TT site, but certainly not all of them. The membership of the TT-Inc is composed of people who contributed to the TT site. The membership of the TT-Inc are not the recepients of this letter, many are missing. Where's Jurian, where's Helena, where's Roger, as he said himself, where's a dozen others? The list of recepients of this message shows that your benevolent leader has started to seriously lose her mind now.

BOTTOM LINE: This message from Nancy is based on false premises, and sent wrongly to the wrong recepients. Instead of addressing the issues which the vote is supposed to be about, the message focuses on the personality of Sol, who has left a long time ago. All the more reason to feel revulsion at the fact that most of what is said in the message about Sol is a lie.

I urge you all not to participate in this sham, this mockery of a vote. What you can do if you feel that all this is an unjust witch-hunt, is send Nancy and all concerned a message where you protest such treatment.

One other thing: I DEMAND THAT THIS DISCUSSION BE TAKEN TO TT-WATCH, FOR EVERYONE TO SEE. There will be no "private" lynchings here.

Sol

-----o-----

Next